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Mission, Process and Argument

I’d like you to watch the above video. It’s important. Not because I agree with it, but because it represents something.

Let me explain – I thought these kind of arguments had been killed and buried at the end of the 80s, but actually they are making a big resurgence. Increasingly as I wade through the internet I find myself embroiled in this sort of debate (I know! I know! I should just close the lid of the laptop and walk away!)
It seems that in the light of the past few years’ worth of military and political activity in Iraq, Afghanistan and so on, for some spirituality has become something to “tackle” as harmless nonsense, and religion as organised dangerous nonsense. I know most readers of this blog would make the distinction between religious and spirituality, but for many people that I come across, they are considered to be two sides of the same coin.

However, in my interactions with these sorts of arguments, I’ve come to realise that both “sides” (myself included) can be guilty of what I’m going to call “bad argument”. These “bad arguments” tend to take a number of forms and I’m going to share what I think are the biggest sins in this area. If we disagree with someone, we disagree with someone. There’s no getting around that. But if we’re going to do so, then missionally it makes sense to do this fairly and without coercion, whilst also recognising when we are being coerced, for the sake of credibility. So here are the definitions of classic bad argument, in no particular order:

Please Note: None of the examples are intended to show any of the points of view presented are wrong, or belittle any religious or political belief. Please concentrate on the structure of the argument rather than the subject matter. I could just have easily have presented a false argument from the opposite position.

You’re an idiot, so you must be wrong (ad hominem)
Where you attack the speaker and not what he’s saying. If someone has to resort to this technique, you’ll often find they haven’t thought through their position very well. This form of argument goes on all the time in political circles.
Eg: “Rowan Wiliams/Richard Dawkins/George Bush is a complete twit, so his argument is completely false.”

The Bible says it’s true, so it must be true (argumentum ad verecundiam )
This is also known as an “appeal to authority” and is very common. Just because a statement supposedly comes from a credible source, doesn’t mean it’s true.

Most of us rely on this one more often than we probably should. We’re unlikely to investigate too thoroughly whether what a doctor says about our health is true, for example. He’s a doctor, so we just assume he’s right.
Because this is such a powerful form of poor argument, it’s often used to trick people into believing something that may be false. Advertisers use scientific terms to sell their products, for example.

You can usually spot someone who’s using this to cover up a weak position by pushing them to provide some evidence other than the authority to back up their claims.

All models are tall, Sally is tall, therefore Sally must be a model (affirming the consequent)
This is when you say an assumption works in both directions, even if there’s no reason to believe so. Just because X means Y, doesn’t mean Y means X, in other words. This can be a very subtle argument to catch out.
Example: “If my business partner was stealing from me, he’d probably buy himself a fancy car. He just bought a Mercedes, so he’s probably stealing from me.”

Evolution says men come from baboons – only an idiot would believe something like that! (straw man)
This is a very common form of poor argument. It involves misrepresenting your opponent’s position, by pretending it’s something that sounds similar but is easy to refute. This is used a lot in political or religious arguments.
Example: “The only reason you want to stop companies offshoring jobs to India is because you’re a racist. No decent person can take such an argument seriously”.

Britney Spears is the most popular singer in the world, so she must be very talented (argumentum ad populum )
This is the appeal to the majority argument. If enough people believe something to be true, then it must be, in other words. The problem is, history is full of examples of sincere majority beliefs eventually being proven false. Just because a lot of people think something, doesn’t make it right.

It’s hot and the crime rate is up – therefore heat causes crime (correlation implies causation )
This is an easy one to catch people out with. Just because two things happen at the same time or in the same place, doesn’t mean there’s any kind of cause and effect going on. It may just be coincidence.
Example: “Every time Frank is on duty in the store something goes missing. That guy must be a thief”.

Killing is wrong, therefore abortion is wrong (petitio principii)
This is a type of circular argument. Basically, it takes the form of putting the proof of your argument into one of the assumptions. The conclusion appears at the beginning and the end of the argument, so nothing of any substance is really created. It basically says X is true, because X is true. It can also take the form X is true because Y is true, and Y is true because X is true.
Example: “Only a loving God could have created such a wonderful world, therefore our world was created by a loving God”.

I have quoted this almost precisely from a great website called Paul’s Tips, and I’m very grateful to that website for such a concise rendering. Please go and check out the many other brilliant things there.

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POSTED 01.07.08 BY: admin | Comments (9)

9 Responses to “Mission, Process and Argument”

  1. On July 1st, 2008 at 2:18 pm David James Harris said:

    Yes. Mission. I like the sound of the idea of engaging in debate ‘missionally’. There’s been times where i have asked provocative questions, but not really because i am looking for a truthful answer but because i want to trip the other person up to get to a better place of proving my own point. We need to engage honestly, out of motives of genuine care or love for the other person. I want to get better at listening to people i don’t necessarily agree with, and be able to respond honestly. Just a thought.

  2. On July 1st, 2008 at 4:08 pm Michael Radcliffe said:

    That’s a great thought, David – and something I’m passionate about.I think we ignore the human element at our peril, and I think you’re right to highlight listening.For me, listening comes out of the meditative tradition – cultivating a mentality of listening to God, I’ve found, can help with the ability to truly listen to other people, and so create a dialogue.

  3. On July 2nd, 2008 at 7:46 pm Ian said:

    For me, there is the focus of mission as engaging with a spirituality that is centred on mystery. Faith and Christianity cannot be boiled down to some form of rational debate – but more of a sense of knowing through experience rather than knowing through facts. This is why I argue that faith is phenonemoloogical – through experience. So Moot – missionally – is about enabling to engage in conversations around the wisdom tradition, and experience – that is what Pub Spirituality is – we admit that all of us are attempting to search for God – who according to the Christian tradition is partially revealed in Christ but mostly out of reach and mysterious…. It is a long way from neo-prosperity-watered-down reactions to new forms of over simplistic fundamentalist formulations.So in thus way, I go back to the quote I p-ut earlier – that mission is more about opening up what we do and think (including social action) that helps us to be hospitable and open ended, seeking to b e inclusive, not for a form of crusade, but mmore about the love of God driving us to share our lives.

  4. On July 2nd, 2008 at 8:28 pm Michael Radcliffe said:

    I think all of that is true, but nonetheless, it is important to retain credibility when one does engage in wisdom-based conversation, which was the point I was making.I would agree with the phenomenological argument to some extent, but I would put to you that in some situations (but clearly not all situations), and with some people, the phenomenological approach will end any conversation you may want to have before you’ve even started. One does need to establish some understanding/common ground with people before you can engage on those terms.I’m quite concerned that actually this is about people’s ability to process rather whether or not rational debate “works”, and that actually we are closing Christianity off to a whole section of society by attempting to deny everything except experience. What about church history? Or theology? Or meditation? Surely it needs to be both/and?I also think that behind the anger and debate is actually a real desire to believe, and/or interpret experience – something we all do in different ways.

  5. On July 2nd, 2008 at 10:52 pm Ian said:

    Hi MikeTotally take your point that mystery should never close down discussion. All I am saying is that discussion in itself is not an end, as mission is about encountering God, which is inherently experiential. Objectification helps us understand facts, I am not sure facts aids mission in a post-secular post-science culture. Yes there is a small cohort of neo-modernists, but this I think is a small grouping.Not sure what you mean by ‘retaining credibility’ – please do unpack that for me. I think the way that you and I process is clearly very different. I want to suggest that culturally there is a shift from objectivised learning (right brain processing) to subjective artistic (left brain processing). For me, faith has nothing to do with objectivised truth claims…I think Cheryl put this well when she said:it takes faith(this is for worship i’m leading next week for the cfm staff gathering)it will take grace to let others here be different to our expectations of themso we pray for graceit will take courage for each of us to live beyond the story we know of ourselvesso we pray for courageit will take wisdom to believe we don’t have all the answersso we pray for wisdomit will take hope to believe our future is not yet determinedso we pray for hopein the story of god all expectations are defiedall things are made possiblethe whole world is made newit will take faith to live as though this can be our storyand so we pray for faith.I can’t say it any better than that.May be this discussion needs some definition. There is for me a difference between Evangelism and Mission. Evangelism is the exploration of the Evangel – ‘Sharing the narratives of the Gospel’ as separate from Mission – seeking to love others and express God’s love. Mission could be argued as indirect evangelism through actions and concern for others… I always feel more comfortable with mission than evangelism, but heay – maybe this is just my weakness.

  6. On July 2nd, 2008 at 11:15 pm Michael Radcliffe said:

    I suppose that by “retaining credibility”, I mean to say that our dialogue with people should be cogent and credible.It’s not enough to simply throw mysticism at people and expect them to catch the ball, any more than it is ok to shout “repent and believe” at people from street corners – we need an approach that establishes some common ground, otherwise this is just the propositional model all over again. It’s not about left brain or right brain, it’s about bridging the gap somehow. Being credible allows this to happen.The problem as I see it, is that you and I both know what Cheryl’s poem is about and would agree with it as we are part of a church culture that knows and recognises that experience – but whilst many outside of church culture would have some inkling of what it means, there are many many more people who wouldn’t know where to start with something like that. There are also many people I know who would turn away in disgust before you’ve even finished reading it to them.Also – not sure what you mean by “culturally there is a shift from objectivised learning to subjective artistic..” What do you mean by “culturally”? In Church culture? Postmodern culture? Please unpack that for me.I agree that you and I process differently – the word “process” is in the title of my post. That is the heart of what I am talking about.I think the right-brain/left-brain thing quite a reductive and oevrsimplistic idea when talking about culture. Right brain/left brain is about character type, and there is an increasing tendency to treat “right-brain” people with disdain. This is not acceptable, and certainly not missional in my opinion.I speak as a spiritual artist who loves the mystical silence and experience, but I know only too well that I had to learn to communicate this to “right-brained” (as you put it) people. This post has arisen out of that experience.

  7. On July 2nd, 2008 at 11:19 pm Michael Radcliffe said:

    Ah – just seen your new post. If I can’t quote you here:”Objectification helps us understand facts, I am not sure facts aids mission in a post-secular post-science culture. Yes there is a small cohort of neo-modernists, but this I think is a small grouping.”It worries me that you think this. It is NOT a small grouping. It’s big and its getting bigger. It’s tempting to think we swept all that away with 90s postmodernism, but it’s back. That’s why Dawkins is so popular right now. And there are many, many more like him. We are entering an age of neo-modernism, and neo-science.Sam Harris, Hitchens, etc.,..

  8. On July 2nd, 2008 at 11:29 pm Michael Radcliffe said:

    Heh – ok, I’ve just seen new bits to your post that I missed before, so I’m having trouble responding.Objectification and facts – I’m not sure what I think about that.I don’t think I’ve ever suggested that I’m trying to establish facts in that objectified sense.My post was about how we share narratives without using bad argument.Out of curiosity, how would you share narrative with the creator of that video that I posted?

  9. On July 3rd, 2008 at 2:14 pm carey said:

    I think Mike’s post doesn’t have to be limited to looking at the way we discuss with people outside Moot – it would also apply to discussions we have between ourselves and also with other church groups etc. There’s something else I want to say, but am finding it difficult formulating it with an inquisitive toddler at my elbow – I’ll come back to it!And whatever “culture” is doing – there will always be people whose brains prefer to deal with facts. I’m a bit of a fan of logic myself!